ALV October 2013/Minutes

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alv 27 october 2013


Started at 15:15

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21 22 23 members present and 3 4 proxy votes. and one observer. and two kids.

(27, 14 is majority)

financial report read by Realitygaps , prepared by Arda Xi:

We pay €1.095,73 a month for rent.

Our income fluctuates more wildly, so I'll just give the data that the bank gives me.

April: € 1.135,69                                                                                                      
May: € 1.900,80                                                                                                        
June: € 2.287,99                                                                                                       
July: € 1.658,16                                                                                                       
August: € 772,49                                                                                                       
September: € 1.509,99                                                                                                  
October: € 1.069,99 (so far)                                                                                           

It's rather difficult to draw any conclusions from this, mostly because sometimes people pay multiple months in one go or don't pay or whatever. I'm also rather reluctant to make calculations from this...

What I can say is that on average, it seems we have a surplus of about €380 a month

suggestion: philip: report how much we are expecting, and how much we got. arnd: it;s not clear what is a "member" and what do we expect.

question: is this about grahs? no. what's the bank balance? savings: 1080; in account 419.75

notes form the board: welcome. we had the board meeting last week, discussing things we thought we heard... finanacial reporting more transparent... another ALV to prepare finatial report for

finantial report form the ex-treasurer: not ready.

number of people 88 . 51 paying.

philip: how many people did not pay longer then 3 monhts?

answer: 22.

vesna: i'll propose "how to end membership", to have something to discuss.

justa: re-read what i posted...


every week one new member. so extra 50 per year. aprox.

let's have this as a point next ALV.

can we see joint dates? yes.

are there quitters? 1 officially. but we don't have a procedure.

mad eddie: let's email them personally.

mark: we'll have auto-mailing.

hamish: what's a motinvaiton?

a: some people stopped comming when we moved.

How many people pay less then minumum? 3 less then 10; 4 more less then 20.

1 Discretionary budget

q: why not from "donations" money? a: that's only for drinks & food.

q: is this from the membership fee? a: yes

q: is this only for board members? a: no; if you want to buy something from the approved list, then board can give you the money back.

q: first money, then items? a: wrong order...

moving the 1.3 to 1.1. , shift the rest.

1.3. voting on mechanism: how to choose category; how do the items get on the list of that category. a group of 5, 4 members and board member. if this gets rejected, we'll use "common sense" instead.

yes: all. no: 0 abstain: 0

1.1. discretionary budget:

yes: all no: 0; abstain: 0

1.2. amount 10: all; 20; 50: most. more: some.

50 euro per month, can not be carried over. only for small expenses.

q: will it make us waste money? no.

2 Paying the loan back to HXX

(hxx helps set up hackerspaces. they helped us with paying notary costs, and they payed the "borgh" / deposit for rent . it was a loan to us.

what's the alternative? not the donation! private loan! the clarifying text is clear on that.

hxx's terms? 5 months, 400 e per month. we *might* want to negotiate.

philip: since treasurer suggested the first option (maybe half year), does he know if we can afford it? justa: there is an explanation from him to the list.

stef: this decision strongly affects next voting point. i would personally not like to have loans, but i would like to have this loan, because of the next votable point. 

sebastian: if we do not move, we might have money to pay it back. 
justa: (yes) 

q: interest-free loan? yes.

brainsmoke: it's a zero-sum. 

stef: we will never get this money back. it's borgh. (unless we move)

philip: s/after/starting? yes. 

 pay from techinc: yes: 9
 pay from private loan: 18
 marin is offering to loan money for the next borgh, under the same conditions. 
 voting: no: no-one. it's confusing. 
 hamish: can we ask all members to pay 25 euros donations ? not an alv - ask for a pledge?! pay it back privatelly? 

3 Shall we move to another space?

last ALV we voted on an intention to move.

control-K: cruquiusweg is now gone.

stef: i'd like to keep it as votable point.

there are other spaces in the same complex!

chotee: yes. but from camelot... and other real-estate agents... we don't know the conditions. we negotiated the terms, took the price down.

dreamer: but there is no time-line for the new space in cruquiusweg. and even our finantial situation is unclear. i'm not sure how can i vote! can we even affort acta space?

justa: if you vote "yes" , you depend on "when is acta space available", and for cruquiusweg, it's unclear.

sebastian: we had to move from techinc, so that doesn;t count justa: it does, it was a choice.

sebastian: can we afford new acta space right now?

justa: 380 per month extra. monthly income...

sebastian: is the current amount enough?

justa: depends on people who did not pay per month.

martin: we are down 700 from the amount the on previous ALV. and i think we should be chasing people more strictly.

mad eddie: we are not having facts, it's about your personal feeling - i am willing to make it happen.

control-k: do we know how many people will we lose if we move again?

stef: we might gain members...

tg: timeline? alv before 1.11. deadline for acta. guys next door

vesna: cruquiusweg is still an existing option. justa: if there is a majority for that, we can't move directly, then there will be people looking into it, and bring the point for the next ALV.

marc & martin: we should not vote for the offer that is unclear and not on the table. only for the actual physical spaces. how much does it cost? is there heating?

control-k: acta options are also unclear.

philip: new space in acta building - board will sign. now: board will evaluate. what's the procedure? justa: (long story) we'll ask mailing list. either we have money or not...

martin: we have to give answers to acta 1 or 2. justa: we'll have a "yes", give us more time to figure out "how".

tg: update on both spaces?

justa: neighbors: 64m2, 1400 + work , rent +700/month (1795 total) . starts 1st january.

other space: 186m2, windows on narrow side, 4m cealing, metal beams for extra floor later; oulside entrance, toilets inside. power will be there & light, there is plumbing. we need to add water & 3-phase. close to the lecture-hall, explioted by someone else. we can sub-let it from them... (mad-eddie: we cna use it from here too...). rent: 1996 e/month. if we make extra floor, maybe that counts extra (dreamer).

martin: marijke suggested that we can build extra surface in new space, she can not charge it extra. remco said it will not increase. but he's not urban-resort. might suspend....

beams are not there to support extra floors!

juulf: if i want to move to cruquiusweg , what shall i vote? "no moving".

chair: let's remove "Move to the Cruquiusweg space."

voting procedure: multiple goes, pitted against each other.

- a) None, we do not move at all and stay where we are. - b) Move to the Larger space within the ACTA building. - c) Add the space of one of our two direct neighbours to ours.

marten: there is still an option to pay "scaled rent". justa: we might try to negotiate this. stef: they would like us to stay here. brainsmoke: -200/month 1st year, pay it on 3rd year... vesna: that means the commitment for 3 years. stef: it's anther loan. or leave them the borgh.

- a) None, we do not move at all and stay where we are. - b) Move to the Larger space within the ACTA building. - c) Add the space of one of our two direct neighbours to ours.

a: 17. b: 7 c: 7

decision: we are not moving!

justa: "that was quite simple".

3.1 storage space

sebastian: can someone become responsible for keeping inventory, and someone to be resposible for the storage space... ? justa: there will be a key... or a shared key... sebastian: and that things are linked to physical persons.

control-k: if you put things in the clean-room, label it, name&date, remove after a week. 
is one complaint enough? 

justa: inention is to sort this out... move to mailing list.

martin: we already do not use many things on regular basis, they could be stored.

cost: 105 e/month. 11m2. no window.

3 volunteers: barbera, martin, joram.

yes: 15. no: 6. abstain: 6.

chosen for extra storage space.

this is influencing our possibility to move to another space, since we will be spending money we could be saving. otoh, our decision to not move was more worried with lack of income, not on expences...


17:38 suggestion: make a card for Amran. YES! Amran, we think about you! Get well soon!

Swapping points 4&5.

Formalising will influence the amount.

4 Formalising memberhip fee

Do we want "this" to be part og "hhr"?

brainsmoke: I don't like the text on the wiki. I want to have it as a "rule".

justa: having it formal, rather then on the wiki.

mark: does it mean that if you pay less then minimum, you are not a member? brainsmoke: on board discretion. to stop pranksters.

justa: what about the people who already pay less? and board has to keep track of these decisons.

philip: we should have "required" ammount. to cover the cost of the space (expenses). allow for dispensation.

justa: we started without a fixed ammount. it was never formal.

control-k: it should be "the whole board". majority of the board. not "only one board member". or at least announced to the whole board.

martin: we need to formalize it, because it's on our statutes. now we have a loophole.

dispossition would have to be reviewed after a year.

chair: we will share this with members - as a part of "finantial report".

how to vote?

5 as a minimum or 20 as a minumum?

marc: we wanted to build a community, therefore we decided to have "recommended" amount. we should not have a required ammount, otherwise we'll make a "club".

philip: if many people are not paying, i don't feel like contributing more.

sebastian: is the current amount enough? yes, because we have 22.5 on average, and we need 23 e. i would rather have active members, rather then people paying up.

stef: we are already welcoming enough, i think "you" need to pay up (enough to pay

phrag: too little money is a problem, too much money is a good situation to have.

martin: formalizing it is important, so that we can make decisions on next ALV about moving.

justa: amount you choose is fixed at the moment you sign up.

problem is: what do we do with people who do not pay at all.

(new guy) i joined because of the low membership fee. i can support you, and still have a good feeling.

alternatively: if you would become "friend of techinc". or "give a donation".

not having a distrinction makes it more welcoming. if you make a large fee, it will not be so attractive.

sebastian: active members should still have voting rights, even if they are paying lower amount.

philips suggestion: $ value = requested amount. mandatory $ value.

2. minumum 5 and recommended 20. 

low suggested and high recommended
high, and requested. 

5.2. brainsmoke suggestion: 2. minumum 5 and recommended 20. but fixed. 
yes: 25. no:0 abstain: 1 (andreas left) 

5.3 no minimum, mandatory $ value. , set in point 4, with discretion of the board. 
yes: 9.  no: 17 abstain: 0 

question: friend of the space? next alv. 

resolution: we keep brainsmoke's text.

stef: keep it on "recommended". 
philip: only facts. 
marc: (?) 
mad-eddie: we just voted that the minimum is 5, so you have to say 5. in the same sentence. 

5 Increasing recommended membership fee

ALV needs to agree on this, we did't do it till now. It ties with the previous point.

martin: it's moot, since we are not moving. justa: we know how much we need to pay, how many members more-less we have... sebastian: we have debts, so we need a buffer.

want to lower it? nobody.

20 - almost all. 1 abstein. 22.5 seven.


philip: number of things that need to be formalized: action points. + next alv: finantial outlook for 2014. justa: based on current costs only? philip: based on current situation.

chotee: statuten to be updated. and hhr. committee? voulteers? control-k, marc, justa, vesna, chottee, brainsmoke

chotee: alternative spaces? next committee? volunteers? we continue.

philip: suggest against yet another committee.

justa: have individual items,

vesna: does it mean we have one item already? yes.

sebastian: did we vote to have this text in hhr? or the minimum amount? and what is it?

statuses: 7.1 - yearly fee decided at alv.

24.2. - hhr can say things about contribution. having the amount is not in conflict.

stef: to digitalize passport copies? can we object? alternative?


Administative points Chair, minute taker, # members present, # proxy votes, handing out voting post-it's Finalising agenda (any new points?) Financial report. Notes from the board Financial report from ex-treasurer Report from the secretary on current number of members (on paper) and estimated number of still-current ("actual"/"paying") members. Statement of board how many people pay the "suggested minimum" amount (or very close to that) or less.

Votable Points1 Discretionary budget (Chotee) Shall the board have an discretionary budget to purchase consumable items needed to satisfactorily run the space from common funds. The goal is to let the space run smoothly (apply common sense). Receipts should be presented to the treasurer for accounting. Agreements will be documented on the wiki. For the maximum value available is specified: - No, we do not need any of this. Yes, we would like this, and there is a budget of: - max 10 euros per month. - max 20 euros per month - max 50 euros per month. - There is no max (we trust our board! ;-) ) And we spend it on different things, we decide on which things can be paid from this budget in the following way: - For the purchase of new "category of items", agreement is neede by at least 4 members and 1 board member. (Voting procedure: First we vote for the "None" option. Only if the "None" did NOT get a majority, we all hold up our hands until there is no longer a majority. The last option with a majority is the selected value). 2 Paying the loan back to HXX - (Merlijn) "we should pay the loan back to HXX from TechInc, under conditions we negotiate " - (Vesna) "we should pay the loan back to HXX from the private donation" - (Vesna) "will TechInc accept a loan from a private individual, for the borg/down-payment for current (h)ACTA space - Terms: loan of 2000 Euro to be payed back after 1.1.2016, with 0% rate, in 5 monthly instalments" 3 Moving to another space Shall we move to another space? (Voting procedure: First round we vote on each of the options separately. Each option that get a majority vote continue to the next round. We then take all of the surviving options and vote them against all the other options (example with options A,B,C: A-B, A-C, B-C, A-C). The option that gets the most wins wins overall. The positive and negative aspects of the each of the voting options have been put in the Mailing list before the ALV and will be summarized before voting. Voting options are: - None, we do not move at all and stay where we are. - Move to the Larger space within the ACTA building. - Move to the Cruquiusweg space. - Add the space of one of our two direct neighbours to ours. * (* This option is currently under investigation. More info will be presented before and at ALV) If the "None, we do not move" wins. There is a votable point: - Renting the 11m2 extra storage room for the duration of us-not-yet-having-moved. Cost of 105 Euros per month (with 1 month notice) 4 Increasing membership fee (Ultratux) Shall we increase the recommended membership fee?

- No, we keep it at 20euros per month.
- Yes, we'll change it to 22,50 Euro per month.
- Yes, we'll change it to 25 Euro per month.
- Yes, we'll change it to 30 Euro per month.
- Yes, we'll change it to 40 Euro per month.

(Same procedure as for the point of budget for consumables) 5 Formalising memberhip fee (1) Brainsmoke: Do we want to have "huishoudelijke regelementen"? (2) Brainsmoke: Do you agree that "Pricing Guideline" (5 Euro minimum per month) & "Becoming a member" become rules, under "huishoudelijke regelementen"Membership#Pricing_Guideline: Membership#Becoming_a_Member Text: In order to become a member, you need to do the following:

 - Fill out a membership form.
 - Setup a monthly bank transfer and send an email to
   with the reference you used to pay - for example your name followed by 'techinc'. 
 If in the future you change the amount you pay each month for membership
 Please can you email the treasurer ( to let him know that you have changed it 
 Tech Inc propose to operate a 'pay what you can' scheme. There will be a suggested
 recommended  amount which we hope all members can meet. The recommended amount will
 be set at a level that ensures we cover our costs.
 If you intend to only use the space once in a while, if at all, then please feel free to pay
 a representative amount which is lower than the recommended amount. The more you use the space,
 the more we would expect you to pay to help cover the running costs. 
 Pricing Guideline:
 - Minimum amount to become a member should be 5 EUR per month
 - Recommended amount is currently 20 EUR month
 - if you cannot afford to pay anything but would still like to be a member of the community, please approach the board. 

(3) Philip : "Agree on the amount of full membership fee for next (financial?) year" "with the understanding that board can grant individual dispensations to pay less then that" Philip's text: "Each year, the board proposes a new membership fee for the next year that covers the costs of the association. The ALV votes on this proposal. When accepted, the fee will be published and members pay that amount starting with the new year.

The board can give people in financial hardship dispensation to pay less than the full membership fee. For each person, the board reviews that decision once a year. The treasurer reports how many members pay less than the full amount and what they pay on average.

Members are free to pay more than the membership fee in which case the excess is considered and reported by the treasurer as donations.

When accepted, this rule becomes part of the 'huishoudelijkreglement'" 6 AOB (any other business.)