ALV September 2020/Minutes

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Techinc ALV notes September 5th.

1. Administrativa

1.1. Number of people present, number of proxy votes, guests?

  • 12 people in the space
  • 7 proxy votes
  • 19 votes total
  • 10 votes quorum

1.2. Approving the notes from the previous meeting

ALV May 2019/Minutes

  • 15 in favor
  • 0 opposed
  • 4 abstentions
webmind: raise your voice bakboter
bigmac: not feeling very well, he might leave during the meeting and vote in favor of all board members

1.3. Finalizing agenda (any new points?)


2. Reports

2.1 Appointing new Kascontrole Committee 2020

The Kascontrole Commissie for 2019 consists of: gorgabal (no longer member), marvin, and justa.

bigmac: finances for 2019 will not be presented here now, because they were not completed
justa: we would like 1 more person to be on the 2019 commitee, who is not a (prospective) board member
piele: Only two are necessary but it's desirable for a third person to be ready as a spare. Still, I'll volunteer.
justa: jonge!!!!!11! <3
katje: piele, do you want to do the 2020 one as well?
piele: let's wait to see if this one is approved...
justa: is anyone against the vote itself? [nobody is against it]
bakboter: Who votes for piele on the Kascontrolecommissie 2019?

Votable point: piele on 2019 Kascontrolecommissie

  • 18 in favor
  • 0 opposed
  • 1 abstains
katje: Do we want to postpone the election of kascontrolecommissie 2020?
qguv: would be nice to have it all done before the next ALV, so people can do the work between ALVs. Board members are not eligable, right?
justa: correct
bakboter: Who wants to be on 2020 kascontrolecomissie?
  • justa volunteers
  • webmind volunteers

Votable point: justa and webmind on 2020 Kascontrolecommissie

  • 18 in favor
  • 0 opposed
  • 1 abstains
bigmac: we can add someone at the next alv. There will be another one this year.

2.2 Report from the Dispute Committee

becha: The dispute committee is quite disfunctional [ed: as it doesn't have the desirable number of members, which is 3]. There is one report to us, which is not yet resolved. The other member is wfk.
katje: Board members are not eligable.
qguv: ideally how many members do you want?
katje: Under 3 and the dispute comimttie is not functional. The board, with the committee, can add a willing volunteer in time of need, to be ratified at the next ALV.

There appear to be no volunteers.

2.3 Report from the Media Committee

webmind: Nothing to report from the media committee.
katje: We have members, let's report their names.
webmind: The members are: webmind, katje, chotee
webmind: sum(sites built, tweets given, messages sent) = 0
katje: We met our numbers from last year!

3. Board elections

Running for board:

  • qguv
  • DrWhax
  • chip
  • wizzup
  • Katje
  • Bakboter
  • 3p1c


  • bigmac
justa: Bakboter, what position are you currently?
bakboter: Free...
justa: There's no secretary, treasurer, ...
bakboter + bigmac: Correct
justa: Who's doing what?
bigmac: Wizzup was chairman/director and finance
drwhax: What's up y'all? Before the quitting started, wizzup was secretary, katje was voorzitter (chairperson), and I (drwhax) was treasurer. That's as far as I know, from the time when the quitting started.
justa: Term limits depend on which position was filled.
realitygaps: Is there a term for $generic_board_member.
becha: Bakboter was elected May 2019.
katje: Is anyone proxying for 3p1c ?
3p1c, from mumble: Hallo allemaal
justa: Bakboter's term is over. He'll have to run again.
bakboter: I'm running again.
realitygaps: Seven people are running for board.
justa: This is really good! Seven is the max!
becha: How specifically does voting/quorum work?
katje: 11 votes are necessary to elect a member.
wfk: Joins mumble, hello!
everyone: Hello :)
bigmac: How do positions work?
[some people]: Board members choose it themselves at the first board meeting.

We chose justa, becha/vesna, and webmind to count votes.

katje: Explaining paper voting procedure. Write name of the person being voted, and YES or NO or ABSTAIN. Do not write your own name. Turn them into the counter.
qguv: You can vote for as many or as few as you want.
qguv, was on the board of hackerVA and wants do document a lot of the board processes and if he's on the board as the bus factor is way to high that's currently not being able to do effectieve
drwhax: you may know me from the first, or last, board. I'm back after quitting. If I would be board, I would be doing mostly finances. The last week I've been busy sorting out TI payments; it's going well but it's already been a lot of work. My aim is, for the next year, to get this all settled so that we have good proceses in place and a healthy bank account where, together with the proposals i've been doing with others, we can invest into the space. If we chase members to pay on time, we'll have more money in the account that we can use to invest in the space.
qguv: [does bad bernie sanders impression]
chip: Hey, I've been hanging around this space for two years now. In the past two years, I've become very familiar with most of the members. I'd like to become board and help with the onboarding of new members. I'd like to keep members coming back and happy. I'd like to take the people-pleasing role in the board.
justa: Does wizzup wanna say something?
wizzup: Sorry! I guess this is why I was ignored earlier... I've been on the board off-and-on for 10 years. It may seem like there's no documentation but a lot of it is board-only. I'm running because I want to help the transition. But drwhax is here so it may not be necessary. Anyway I'll probably resign once it's done.
katje: Hi, you may remember me from such hits as "the previous board" and "let's get a 3d printer" project. I want to rejoin the board to get the space back to a functional state where we have tools that work that we can use to do projects. I'm not looking for any specific board position other than $not_treasurer.
bakboter: Hi all, I'm running to try to keep this space running. I've been running the space for a while and want to keep things running smooth. I'm there when you need me.
3p1c: Hi there, good afternoon, I've been a member for a couple years now. Been talking to wizzup lately about what work there actually is as a member. I'm running with my experience organizing fossdem.
bigmac: bakboter wants to proxy for 3p1c, instead of 3p1c having to vote non-anonymous on mumble. It doesn't change the quorum. Nothing changes, it's just on paper now.
justa: But all votes are supposed to be on paper...

[ vote begins ]

[ justa, becha, webmind collect votes ]

[ smoke break while they count... ]

[ ...counting continues... ]

[ ...counting complete! ]

webmind gives results:

  • qguv is elected in
  • drwhax is elected in
  • chip is elected in
  • wizzup is elected in
  • katje is elected in
  • bakboter is not elected in
  • 3p1c is elected in

4. Motions

4.1. Justa non-board data-access 2020

See full description on wiki:

justa: [Gives summary of motion.] We are a year overdue in processing member dues. I really want to get us out of this dire situation. I want to be able to help now.
bigmac: To the point of non-board members accessing private data: We did not reply to the email we got about this. What justa suggests would solve the problem.
piele: I think the board already has the privilege to make this happen. I don't see why we should have to explicitly do this.
justa: ... [ed: I was on IRC and missed justa's response]
realitygaps: Should it be public who has access? To avoid conflict of interest?
webmind: Current board members: how would you plan to implement this?
katje: It's not transparently as the statutes are hard to find on the wiki or not understandable if the person doesn't understand legalese
becha: I'd like to add a limitation for a limited time period
justa: ... [ed: I was on IRC and missed justa's response]
3p1c: an email address should exist for people to object to someone performing these tasks.
justa: about vesna's time limit point, i've thought about including this, .. it prevents the problem if people fall away, they can pick it up. This person is still working on this problem in this committee, this NDA for that purpose is still in effect. A report, whose covered under which ALV ,who has acess to which data. So new members will also know who has an NDA.
katje: an NDA on this cannot lapse. If the board give you access to the data, you have to always be bound by the NDA to not share that information. The grant of access can be limited, but the limitation of disclosing the data must be eternal.
3p1c: NDA should be perpetual and on a person as an committee is not an legal entity. Legally that's how it's done.
bakboter: piele go ahead
piele: [raised his hand on mumble] The only thing: If we're bringing this into a vote like this, that we're voting into an huishuidelijk regelement, we'll ratify it at the next ALV
justa: that is a valid assertion
katje: we can throw an amendment in for checks and balances, each amendment individually can be voted in.
qguv: piele can you explain what you mean about huishoudelijk regelement and getting this voted in?
piele: if we were to vote for this, we make this by the letter, if we want to change things, in this proposal, to a vote in the next ALV to change this. It limits how you can implement this.
justa: the only addendum, even though its not a requires state of the proposal de facto making that the situation for now, the next alv we'll add that to an addendum, as thats how we like that for the next ALV
qguv: yes thank you for the clarification y'all
webmind: Yeah I just looked up the statutes, het bestuur kan besluiten tot het verlenen van een of meer besturen als gezamen als afzonderlijk om die volmacht te vervolgen. (13.4) For the next ALV
3p1c: We had something like this already. We could vote a point for the new board to execute this correctly.
justa: This says the board has this power, but in the statutes, it says you can represent the institution as a non-board member to the outside or as needed for the law.
3p1c: If you can represent a board member legally, it means you can do what that member can do. Therefore if the board is allowed to do X, the proxy can too. If we determine that X is "accessing member data" then it's not needed.
justa: I'd like to withdraw my point until next ALV if the assembly agrees.
bigmac: Interesting discussion, happy with justa's comments, I vote blank on whatever. Gonna take leave for now, cya later :)
everyone: Bye bigmac, feel better!
justa: Okay I'm withdrawing my point.
katje: The quorum has changed. There are now two votes not being represented. We can't multiproxy so we can't use bigmac's votes.
3p1c: If bigmac says to vote blank (abstain) then it's fine right? We still have the same quorum?
drwhax: we can't do it because there can be only one proxy
3p1c: okay
drwhax: I've been doing financial administration [menacing music]. As the person doing this stuff right now, it would be nice to have something like this here. AFAIK there are three people who know how to do the financial admin: wizzup, justa, drwhax. There's a lot of hacking involved in processing membership info. People come and go, it's not fully automated or up to date... it's a lot of work. It should be easier if admin is done monthly (which is the current plan) but that's my only remark for now.
justa: The current situation is stable but not fully featured. It's all based on shell scripts; it used to just be python but now at least there's some shell scripts. I'd really like to change that. I left the board after writing a lot of tools to make sure someone can take it over. Me and qguv talked before about fixing the software tooling (ed: confirmed) but couldn't at the time because of this.

[end remarks on 4.1]

4.2. Webmind & DrWhax tool guardian proposal 2020

See description on wiki:

drwhax: (inhales)
justa: keep it short >:)
drwhax: proposal proposes that members take responsibility for upkeep and maintenance of specific tools and training members. board has the final say on the budget but should trust the expertise of the guardians. we should deal with this at the end of the year so we have budgets for the next year. I'd like to have budgets again...
katje: How does this differ from the tool guardian proposal we voted on at the last ALV? I wrote one at a previous ALV
webmind: This one requires budgeting
katje: what happens to the previous ones? twos? many many proposals for guardianship apparently?
[justa is looking it up]
justa: so there's a tool guardian proposal 24 nov 2018 called "tool guardians". Board can appoint willing tool guardians for areas of the space. Blahblah see wiki please. Important points: no exceptions or extra privileges; this is just a nice designation.

Justa's space guardian proposal from Nov 2018 ALV:

drwhax: I'd recommend we drop this until we look into the existing proposals. Same with agenda point [4.3].
justa: I'd like to be present for it
becha: bye everyone!!
  • 17 votes total
  • 9 votes quorum

There are now no motions to vote on; they've all been rescinded.

4.3. Webmind & DrWhax Acquiring new tools proposal 2020

[withdrawn per previous discussion]

See description on wiki:

5.0. Left overs from the previous meetings?

Local: nobody has anything Mumble: no comments after 30 seconds

6. Any other business

3p1c over mumble: transition of the old to the new board?
drwhax: Some soothing words: In this distopian hellhole that's called planet earth... where to start... some of the things we---I hope to get done quickly is get the payment processes out of the way. I'll be following up with people to get 'em up to date as quickly as possible. We're break-even for August, which makes me happy :) Hopefully we'll also break even for september. Some of the other things I'd like to get out of the way: if any new people want to come to techinc, with all safety precautions etc, it would be nice. We haven't had any signups since last February afaik; compare this to 2019 where we gained 20 members (ed: qguv included <3). When I was still board, we asked people to slightly raise their contribution: historically €20 was recommended, but we're now recommending €25. We want to invest in the space; I wanna support qguv and katje about getting new tools etc. I wanna thank the previous board for all they've done; running a hackerspace is not an easy task--as we're all cats. [justa: with lasers! pewpew]. We're already better at this, but I want to excel at administration.
drwhax: look at me, I'm a communist apparently. As of next year, we have existed for 10 years! We had a meeting pre-corona called "TI for the next 10 years" where we began to think and plan for this. TI wouldn't exist without its members so I'd like to thank you all (this sounds too sweet...) everyone makes the space. Everyone be careful, and I'm looking forward to seeing everyone at the space.
justa: I forgot my comment oops.
piele: Thanks for everyone who put in the effort to get the mumble experience work; it's all last-minute but thanks everyone for the clutch. Another point: As we have more meetings in the space, we should get our corona precautions somewhere publically. Make it clear how many people max in the space, clear paths, etc. I haven't been in the space for a while.
justa: We're gonna be posting policies going forward. And you're volunteering for that now right?
piele: Yeah. And we can have 14 people in the space I think.
thejinx, non-member popcorn toeschouwer (jk) from IRC: how is -500 for August break-even?
thejinx, someone paid €200 last night, €2xx before that... so these will be updated soon. Update yr site or we'll sue ya!!!!!
justa: The way we handle finances: you can pay whenever for however long: is annoying and difficult to track. It would be nice to clarify this and remove SOME degrees of freedom so we can have e.g. a specific payment date.
drwhax: Mumble worked surprisingly well.
katje: Yes, but with a longer mic cable.
katje: Question for last night finances people: how much money we got?
drwhax: Sorry I don't know
katje: Drinks?
justa: Was a committee, drinks, member-run. Bigmac is stepping back though, bakboter can you help?
bakboter: I'll help as long as I can but I need assistance.
justa: If mumble people think drinks are nice,
3p1c via mumble: ME [justa: Bakboter will you follow up?] [bakboter: ok]
qguv: We should do better next time; I'll make a proposal to formalize it
3p1c: Since I was the "bad guy" who put it up ivm quarantine, I put up the mumble. I'd like to take up the responsibility to make it better for next time.
qguv: Yes would like the help thanks 3p1c.
justa: I don't know if it's proposal worthy, the specific equipment
qguv: The specific equipment doesn't need to be in there, just the plan in general
justa: We do allow remote participation, and we specifically decided NOT to specify specific software because it changes so often
katje: Suggest change from "we should be able to do it" to "we do this specifically". We should do more to be accessable to everyone
[mumble users]: general agreement
drwhax: We currently have 4092.09 in the bank. 583.04 in savings. I don't have access to drinks account; I'll get back to you on that.
addendum by bigmac: in the triodos bank after todays deposits is € 757,85
justa: I think most has been said, anyone else?
katje: We discussed tool guardian proposal earlier. This only works if people volunteer. Please volunteer! Afaik only the 3d printer has a guardian (me and jawsper)
qguv: and the organ!

> katje: :| Yes okay and you on the organ

justa: Anything else?
bakboter: Any other remarks? Then I'll close the meeting.
jinx: I have updated
whax: ty <3
3p1c: Thanks to past members for all they've done. Bureaucrats, members, etc. Thanks everyone to committing to this meeting.
justa: Bureaucrat has been changed to bureaucat early in TI history.
justa: Gonna disconnect, hang on
qguv: 3p1c we wanna have a board meeting soon. [had audio issues and couldn't hear 3p1c]