View source for ALV June 2013/Minutes

ALV notes 2013-06-29 

started 12:25
15 members present at that time

0. Admin details

1. Report from the ex-treasurer: financial report about 2012

1.1. report from ex-treasusrer: not there

1.2. report from current treasurer: was sent to the list 
	- payments for one-member-one-month :
	it would be helpful if everyone would only pay monthly, 
	and make separate payments for individual members 
	- current financial status: what does it mean? 
	we have enough money to pay the rent. 
	1096 payed per month; income a bit more; all the taxes are payed; 1800 total savings now, about 100e/month added. about 70 members in total. 
	- treasures will send details to the list, for transparency, althou it's hard to make extrapoloation from that data.
	- Marc: can you add it to the wiki? Wizzup: sure.

1.3. Justa: notulen (yearly payment) VS monthly membership: how to fit our reality to the legal framework. We need HHR (Huishoudelijk Reglement). Who wants to be on this task-force? We need few more items like "use of the tools", use of the space, responsibilities... Friso, Marijel, plus old group (5). Anyone else, send points to the mailing list. Chotee: put it on the wiki. Philip: announce the evening so all interested can take part. 

2. Elections for at least one board position replacement

Stef is stepping down from the board. The board and everyone is thanking Stef for his work on the board. 

There was one nomination, by Arda Xi: (see agenda) 

He was already active in paying the taxes & doing other administrative tasks. 

Voting on trusting Arda Xi to have him on the board: "anonymous voting". 

Friso: what kind of responsibility? Justa: only financial, all other decisions made my ALV. 

Voting commission has declared ArdaXi to be a member of the board. 


3. Outstanding from previus ALV (here are some guidelines on how to submit votable points)
	▪	3.1.1. Facebook account should be dismantled. (Wizzup)

Wizzup: fB account was created without permission of the majority. Pros & cons: in favour: we might reach more people, for events. Cons: who has the control of the "account", and is that the official opinion of TechInc. 

Vesna: there are 6 people who can post "as TechInc". 

Webmind: is it an account, or a group? 
It's an account. 

The issue is: the ALV backing of this, or the lack of? 

Philip: I think it is OK to have it as it is. 

Friso: can you switch off some options? 

Justa: first we need to sort out the main point. 

Big discussion: "voice of Techinc" or reaching out; official channel of communication as in statuten; 

Wizzup: can we make it into a group instead?
There should be nothing new on fB that was not on mailing-list (or wiki, RSS...). 

Webmind: As in making statements: fB is already a statement. Using it is an approval. 
(as is doing shopping at AH). 

Marc: it can not be official, because not everyone can access it. 

Melinda: others will find us; fB is going down. 

Philip: our trademark should not be associated with fB. 

Stef: this is one of the tools... for communication. It is a necessary evil, and if it brings us new members it is beneficial. 

Brainsmoke: what would be the consequences? Remove the logo? Remove the page? 

Justa: it will be a placeholder for redirection to .. something else. 

Webmind: I agree on adding a disclaimer . I don;t think the goal should be adding more&more members. 
In addition, I want more clarity in what is the preferred communication to TechInc. 

Marc: rename it as "unofficial" . Or ask fB to dismantle if someone else squats our trademark.

Ardaxi: we do not own the trademark.
Let's create it - and embrace the intellectual property mechanism. 

Wizzup: I agree that we should not go for the quantity of members.

Justa: if there has to be a placeholder, we can at least make a disclaimer that it is unofficial. That still leaves the question of endorsement. 

3.1.2.	Or be made unofficial

"Unofficial means: change the name of the page in unofficial, include a pointer to the group, keep making events... point to the web-site; make it open and inclusive so that anyone who wants can take part. 

and remove the mention of fB from our wiki & web-sites...."

General: for other social media - as long as it is clearly marked unofficial. 
 
Marc: as long as people post things as themselves, it's fine. 
Webmind: 

Voting on the point "making fB unofficial" 

- marking
- allow multiple people to control it
- make it on personal title 
- events, pointing to existing info
- not listing on wiki & web at all, link to only as unofficial 

Votes: yes 12 / 15 ; no: 0 ; abstaining: 3 

Votes on dismantling: yes: 4; no 10; abstaining: 1 


3.2 Twitter account should be dismantled. (Wizzup)
Or be made unofficial

Twitter: who can post as techinc? Amran & Jurra; it's an account, with username&password; Amran announces existing events; answers questions & clarifies English questions; Jurra answers Dutch questions. Jurra RT his own tweets; Amran RT's hackerspace related info. 

Wizzup: if you can just add "unofficial", and allow other people? 
Amran: yes. 
Marc: also drop from the front page? Justa: maybe. 
Brainsmoke: it's a good way to reach people. It allows for everyone to see it. 
Martin: Twitter is not as evil as fB. it's not a threat to privacy. 
Philip: I suggest voting on the same rules. Justa: I agree, because we will need to do this all over again for the next social network. Proposing: turn-around the voting points. 
Brainsmoke: if it is official, we can require sticking to "communication rules"
(vesna - it cna be done on the phone?!) 
Philip: if we say that only already posted things should be resent... 
Justa: questions to us? redirect the (complex) ones to the mailing list... 
Brainsmoke: i would not remove it from wiki as a point of contact... because it's a communication channel / way to reach more people, we need inflow of people: new & interesting...  
Wizzup: make a pointed to list of "unofficial channels" 
Webmind: make it clear on the same page... 
Marc: no, we already agreed to remove fB...

Voting: making it unofficial the same definition of unofficial 

Yes: 10; no: 2; abs.. 3 

Voting: dismantling: yes: 1; no: 9; abs 5 

3.3 mailinglist should be dismantled. (Aldert)
Or be made unofficial

Aldert is not here.
Motion for voting to not happen. 
Question: is it legal to skip the vote? 
Marc: if the point is clear, we can still vote. 

Vote on making it unofficial: 

Yes: 2 No: 11 A: 1
Dismantling: 
Yes: 3 No: 10 A: 1 

4. New agenda points

4.1 Does the vereniging of Technologia Incognita commit to moving to the proposed new space at the ACTA building? (Amran) //Space_Requirements/ACTA_2_proposal

quoting Amran's email...

(look it up )

why now: 
- UR is currently making planning for the layout, if we commit then we get to choose the layout.
- if we don't commit now, UR will make it into smaller spaces.     
 
why here: 
- he thinks Acta is a good location. 
	- we are the biggest Dutch hackerspace, with number of members
	- we have a  good landlord. 
	- we have creative neighbors 
- 200 & 225 m2
money: 
- we will *not* have enough money in december. 
	   - scaled rent over 3 years: 80%, 100%, 120% (or 6 months / 18 months) 
- other things to offset: members paying more now, reduce later; 

Wizzup: what do we have to do now? sign the contract? 
A: only give indication of interest, then work with architect...
- when can we change our mind? 

Justa: 225 / storage has the same rent-price. It should have smaller rent... 
Ardaxi: feeling about commitment is about the building the walls, for us, or not. 
Price based on what? Current rent we pay now. 

Stef: not happy with current/ACTA location. price is not much less then commercial in this area. I would rather go back to the city center; or ask ACTA to talk down the price for (new space / current space).

Wizzup: price is high, but does include internet, heating, power. I have looked at other spaces. If we will move, we should look at other locations & options. 
Where are other options? 

Stef: UR might not deliver in time, as they have a habit of. 

Marc: how long do we have to stay?
What are we voting on? 
"Are we interested in UR space?" 
"Do we think we need to move?" first? Amran - no.

Brainsmoke: we will have to move, so saying NO to this offer will force us to look for another option later on. 

Marten: questioning the growth: Revspace has existed 4 years, has only 40 members. Amran: we have more diverse community. 
Will our growth continue? 

Brainsmoke: if we do not have the money in December, we will not sign. 

Justa: clarifies...

Philip: current problems: you can not unload; there is no elevator. New space? Unload? access form ground floor? Elevator? Sunlight? I do not like the new ACTA space. 
A+A: there are windows. 
Philip: can they provide good access? And let us unload... Specially if we want to bring bigger equipment. 
Brainsmoke: maybe include "free parking space"
Webmind: I would like to move to the bigger space, and nicer location. UR seems like a good negotiating partner. And no-one has an alternative suggestion. I would like to have options. 
Justa: we can set-up parallel effort. 
Friso: there is surplus of office space in A'dam. It's a buyers market. 
Amran: we do industrial activities, consider that. 
Chotee: The reason to say no to UR is only if we don;t want to move at all. 
unless someone is against the idea of moving at all. 
The price is important. 

Vesna: we have invested a lot in this space, and should consider that as an asset, which we will lose. And the move will cost certain amount, and setting-up new space will cost some amount of money too. We need to put all those things on paper and into our plan. 

Justa: the growth is not guaranteed to be linear. If we say NO to UR, we have nothing else. If we say YES, we can still change our mind. 
When we do want to move, we can move at any time. 
We can do whatever we want in the current space. 

Wizzup: 200m2 is probably large enough. We should look for bigger spaces, in order not to have to move again, since moving is a pain. There are better spaces.
Justa: We looked already, before. 
Brainsmoke: if we have 300 members, it will be easier. 
The growth might be even bigger, specially after OHM. 
The prices are... weird. 
Bring our concerns to UR.
Martin: Other options exist - we can expand to the space of our neighbors. Contact them again? From the board. 
Marc: "door of our own" is important. New space has it. We need the unloading code. 100 -> 75; 200m2 -> 150 members? 
Philip: 120e/m2/month. Funda has plenty options. 
Stef: it's an asshole move if we say yes and not mean it. 
Amran: we talked about them already like that, with 
Amran: scaling-up: other spaces, in UK: London had 80 in 100m2; 120->200m2. Problems became about 350-400 members; what helps: small-partition classroom for small events. Nothingam had 300m2, with 20 members. Over 200 members now. 

Vesna: if we say "yes", I prefer if we are clear that it is optional, we are not sure, we are not committed!! 
Friso: put that in writing. 

Perception: "we will need more space". Some people agree, some not. 
Do we need to move at all?

Votable points: 
1. Do we need more space , in the next 6 months? 
2. Do we want to say "yes" to UR. 
... yes, given: negotiate the price, amenities... ; under condition that we have money!, by default

(not votable, but actions)
3. Who will pick this up, to negotiate with UR, committee, and communicate to members... 
	200/225 is one of the details of the deal. 
4. also by default: people should look around, and we can always move elsewhere. good input to the UR committee

Mareile left, Matthew arrived 
yes / no / ab
8 / 5 / 2 

do we say yes to UR? 
yes / no / a 
10 / 0 / 5

3: philip, matthew, maarten, brainsmoke 

4. wizzup, chotee, stef, friso, 

Other members can also volunteer to both of these committees. 

Amaran will inform Marijke about "tentative yes". 

4.2 should Tech Inc get a cleaner for 2 hours a month? (Amran)

Lots of communal spaces are not cleaned. Amran will guide them.

Melinda: we are adults, we can make a system to do it ourselves. A schedule. 
Webmind: I have a problem with this. We are a community. If we can't even clean after ourselves, we are a bunch of rich kids who can not clean after ourselves. 

Marc: having a cleaner would encourage people to be messy. It's not regular enough to actually keep it clean.

Maarten: +1. 

Matthew: We can do it ourselves. 

Friso: maybe we can make it part of rules / HHR. 

Marc: automated lights contrloer? 

Brainsmoke: having a cleaner does not forego your duties to clean after yourself. The problem is too complex for a cleaner.
When you statr cleaning, other wpople will help you. Having a schedule is a bad thing. Zen: accept that you will be the one cleaning more.

Wizzup: make a list of when you HAVE cleaned. 

Justa: easy things are to clean your work-place, the shared spaces are not. responsibility is of everyone to keep the space tidier then you found it. regular cleaning sprees of communal areas: floor, kitchen. i'm against paying professionals. 

Stef: we could and we should, but we don't. 

Vesna: let's try for 6 months.

Melinda: if you put yourself on the schedule , it makes you more responsible for the space. you gain a sense of ownership. 

Webmind: if i clean the space for 2 hours a month, do i get a free membership? 

Marc: if we clean for 15 minutes with lots of people, that's a lot of work done.
if we reframe it to "i am part of the space, i want to clean for all of us". 

Amran: we tried this in London, we did it few times, everything else failed. We hired a cleaner. 

Justa: is there a deadline? No. 

Vote: do we want to commit to 2h/m payed cleaning? 

if not, do we want to go for a "rote"? Should we make a structure - a committee? 

yes / no / a 

5 / 9 / 1 

Committee: Melinda / Justa /Webmind / Wizzup / Marc 

5. AOB (any other business)

5.1 timing of ALV next time
a bit later next time.  

5.2 Brainsmoke: there will be a cleaning party now.

5.3. Maarten: AH party also before

5.4 Marc: can we get advance for OHM-pre-party from vereneging? yes. 
Amran -> ask Quonza for sponsorship / ITQ. 

5.5 vesna: official TechInc representation of TechInc at OHM? 
no... 
pre-OHM party ; BBQ; anything spontaneous ; 

5.6. Wizzup: sponsoring, in general? 

Justa: we do not want to be dependent on donations, sponsors... 

Membership support should be an indication of support. 

"Who pays, decides". 

Vesna: Sponsorship rules: as part of HHR. 

Chottee: it makes us look good that we do not take sponsorship. if we will take money, i would like to have a vote on that. 

Friso: how far are we following the design patterns of CCC? we can take their guidelines. 

Marc: if we tell them "you give us money, you get nothing". 

Justa: we do not want to receive regular, systematic support. 

Matthew: we can put the sponosrship money in separate account. 

5.7. Wizzup: make us stop paying taxes. register an non-profit. 

AraXi says: no. we deduct btw on rent. we pay btw on membership, as income. drinks are on donations, so there we do not pay taxes. 

5.8. Wizzup: film-crew: any objections? When: Thursday. 

Amran: is someone going to be there? Yes.

Marc: branding? they will remove it. Keep the privacy. 

Webmind: will we be in the credits? Don't know. 

Money: 300,42. 

Maarten: On the social? Not requested!

Vesna: is this like sponsorship? 

Brainsmoke: are we going to get used? like "bag guys"? 

Webmind: lets be critical for what we rent our space for. 

Justa: there is no way we can make these decisions outside of ALV, unless someone is very much against. 

Webmind: it's good to have guidelines. 

Vesna: encourage people to voice their disagreement. 

Matthew: (good idea) 

5.9. Please put the note on the door / poster: only for members! 

Done: 16:05